tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post8577932526727851942..comments2023-10-29T15:32:19.571-04:00Comments on The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles: Game Reserves, Preserve Hunting, High Fence Hunting, What are the Facts?Albert A Raschhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-44478039843030822322009-06-28T13:05:42.436-04:002009-06-28T13:05:42.436-04:00A few points: High fences are to keep other deer ...A few points: High fences are to keep other deer out. Once the owner has the population down to or below the carrying capacity of improved, attractive range, he doesn't want an influx of deer from neighborning lands.<br /><br />A whitetail deer's usual range is roughly a section or so--640 acres or thereabouts. A high-fenced pasture of several thousand acres is in no way a "cage".<br /><br />Vegetation makes a big difference. I've hunted Texas brush country and in the river bottoms along the Appalachicola below Blountstown, Florida: "Free range" could include ten or twenty acres inside a high fence, insofar as ever finding an uncooperative buck. You can't shoot what you can't see.<br /><br />Then there are those folks who've let themselves get trapped by life itsownself: Office job in a city, few days per year for any sort of hunting opportunity away from Momma and the kids--that solo time that guys need. Even paying a bunch of $$$ to sit in a stand and get an easy shot beats sitting home, wishing, while watching the Outdoor Channel.<br /><br />Art Eatman<br />Terlingua, TexasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-73237516943275685192009-06-28T13:05:38.050-04:002009-06-28T13:05:38.050-04:00A few points: High fences are to keep other deer ...A few points: High fences are to keep other deer out. Once the owner has the population down to or below the carrying capacity of improved, attractive range, he doesn't want an influx of deer from neighborning lands.<br /><br />A whitetail deer's usual range is roughly a section or so--640 acres or thereabouts. A high-fenced pasture of several thousand acres is in no way a "cage".<br /><br />Vegetation makes a big difference. I've hunted Texas brush country and in the river bottoms along the Appalachicola below Blountstown, Florida: "Free range" could include ten or twenty acres inside a high fence, insofar as ever finding an uncooperative buck. You can't shoot what you can't see.<br /><br />Then there are those folks who've let themselves get trapped by life itsownself: Office job in a city, few days per year for any sort of hunting opportunity away from Momma and the kids--that solo time that guys need. Even paying a bunch of $$$ to sit in a stand and get an easy shot beats sitting home, wishing, while watching the Outdoor Channel.<br /><br />Art Eatman<br />Terlingua, TexasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-4655035623522515332009-06-25T17:39:12.965-04:002009-06-25T17:39:12.965-04:00well im handicaped and i worked hard to get my goa...well im handicaped and i worked hard to get my goat and pig even though it was a high fence hunt we arwe talking acres of land one animal for me too shoot so i had to find the perfect goat and pig and i did i took them both down the boar was an easy 25 yard shot the goat took a lot of work 4 shots from a 300 at 350 yards and 15 shots from a 45 at 25 yardsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-15186539845198547132009-04-03T00:13:00.000-04:002009-04-03T00:13:00.000-04:00Not much to add here - I'd just like to reiterate ...Not much to add here - I'd just like to reiterate basically what my pops had to say on the subject...I think you nailed it, Albert with the simple phrase Hunting is what YOU make it. To each their own...maybe it's my own indrawn nature that believes I shouldn't be concerned with what other folks get their thrills on. If it is within the legal realms, I'm not going to concern myself with it. I can see where Deer Passion comes from - I grew up and still live in very rural America where I love what it means to be able to step out the back door into paradise hardly touched by mankind. However, I just don't see how it's any of my business if someone wants to pay for a high fenced hunt.<BR/><BR/>I'll let my favorite part of this blog (with a few modifications) be my closing statements, Albert:<BR/><BR/>Quite frankly I don't care. What he does is his business. Joe Silk Shirt never stood toe to toe with a slobbering bull elk. He's never packed in 12 miles and overlooked the deepest canyon in North America - and hunted it to the bottom. He's never shared a cup of coffee with family in a wall tent deep in the Idaho wilderness. He's never packed an elk out on his back.<BR/><BR/>I have.Tom Sorensonhttp://basecamplegends.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-67071683222790609222009-03-31T20:26:00.000-04:002009-03-31T20:26:00.000-04:00Well said Gunslinger,I will start trying a little ...Well said Gunslinger,<BR/>I will start trying a little harder to practice that philosophy.nativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04428958610230219051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-22031486668355234032009-03-31T15:03:00.000-04:002009-03-31T15:03:00.000-04:00If people would just leave the judging at their do...If people would just leave the judging at their doorsteps, as in when they leave, we would be a lot better off.<BR/><BR/>Shoot Straight,<BR/>GunSlinger<BR/><A HREF="http://outrevrev.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Reviewing the Reviews</A>Gun Slingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01023846777699697952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-20215734735299236282009-03-31T02:20:00.000-04:002009-03-31T02:20:00.000-04:00Phone convo with a friend of mine on one of the Te...Phone convo with a friend of mine on one of the Texas ranches just ended.<BR/><BR/>Best buck taken on the boss ranch this season was a 28 point with minimal brow tines. Dressed it weighed 195lbs. They've been feeding protein about 10 years now. Hunter took it honestly with my friend's borrowed .204 as he had a malf with his .300 UltraMag but for that part of Texas, you don't see that weight or points on a whiteboy deer. It was a farmed and engineered buck.<BR/><BR/>Still having a problem as to does there and bad spikes as the paying customers don't like to shoot them so they get culled, one way or another. That's what me and my pals are for. You can't eat antlers, I don't care how good your choppers are. I can cook the heck out of the stuff other people don't want cos they just want horns.<BR/><BR/>Real time real life reflections on a HIGH FENCE operation.<BR/><BR/>No punches pulled.<BR/><BR/>Was good to catch up with an old buddy anyway and for Albert, we just found a new hog spot!!!!<BR/><BR/>How many of you have ever even seen a 28 point at the game check station, being tagged? Not particularly natural for this part of the world. How many have ever even seen a 28 point buck, much less one that likely was under 4 years old?<BR/><BR/>Farm or not. Pick one.<BR/>I'll judge nobody for their choice on that though I might not hunt with them.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>Tomtomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-37350136730000710852009-03-30T11:15:00.000-04:002009-03-30T11:15:00.000-04:00With the exception of one Albert,Safari Club Inter...With the exception of one Albert,<BR/>Safari Club International has a High Fence Trophy Category.<BR/><BR/>Also, when an animal is taken from a preserve there must be a Tag, Tattoo or Electronic Sub-Cutineous Device which display's the Preserves "Premises Permit Number".<BR/><BR/>Ours here at Native Hunt is: 00EMF2K for those who wish to check our California Department Of Agriculture Premises Permit status.<BR/><BR/>We couldn't agree more with Caleb's statement, the people who try and register their Preserve Trophy with B&C or P&Y are doing so "Illegally" and some do get caught.<BR/>Unfortunately some also slip through the crack's.<BR/><BR/>Great discussion,<BR/>Now everyone seems to be asking the right questions without having so much emotion infused within their statements.<BR/>This, as you have said Albert is the way to understanding and a mutual meeting of the minds.<BR/><BR/>Whether a person agrees with,condones,patronizes or just simply finds the High Fence Outfitters distasteful.<BR/>The proper way to make "any" objective opinion about anything we are unsure of, is to ask honest questions, and expect to get an honest reply.<BR/><BR/>My very best to you all,<BR/>T. Michael RiddleNativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689689976933684301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-33159146497694558982009-03-30T09:42:00.000-04:002009-03-30T09:42:00.000-04:00Caleb,If I understand you correctly, I think that ...Caleb,<BR/><BR/>If I understand you correctly, I think that what you propose is that anyone that takes a native animal in an operation that breeds them for and supplements their diet to maximize trophy quality, should not be allowed to enter it in ANY, record book, contest, or sanctioned organizations books.<BR/><BR/>I agree with that with the caveat that an organization devoted to "Human Intervention" game animals be allowed to do their own thing if they desire.<BR/><BR/>As it is, none of the established record keeping organizations allow records from any high fenced or game preserve in their books.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>AlbertAlbert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-49701046248597849602009-03-30T08:57:00.000-04:002009-03-30T08:57:00.000-04:00What I meant before when I said that I think that ...What I meant before when I said that I think that the animals killed should be registered is, that when the season is open for that animal and It should be illegal to register an animal killed in a private reserve as a wiled animal.<BR/><BR/>I thought that I should clear that up because, I looked at my last comment and it looked like I thought anyone who wanted to hunt on a private hunting reserve should have to get a tag from the state. And the state should have no right to tell the land owner what they should do with their land.I feel that it is private land and they should be able to do anything with it they wish.Caleb Pearcehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331940359174211773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-38278338101984298022009-03-30T08:49:00.000-04:002009-03-30T08:49:00.000-04:00Tom I couldn't agree with you more.Tom I couldn't agree with you more.Caleb Pearcehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331940359174211773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-15178293807067132502009-03-29T20:08:00.000-04:002009-03-29T20:08:00.000-04:00Gentlemen,This a fantastic and amicable discussion...Gentlemen,<BR/><BR/>This a fantastic and amicable discussion. Passions run deep, and we can all come out of this with a better understanding of what is transpiring, and what the different "interests" are.<BR/><BR/>I assure all of you that we are going to continue this discussion and pick it apart, section by section, and we will come up with, what do they call it in business?, ah yes, a Memorandum of Understanding.<BR/><BR/>I can't thank all of you enough for contributing, speaking your minds, and I am sure learning along with me!<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>AlbertAlbert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-84563255414455365432009-03-29T18:46:00.000-04:002009-03-29T18:46:00.000-04:00We have mountains and canyons too in Texas. That'...We have mountains and canyons too in Texas. That's why it took forever to find the buck bankerboy hit with a lesser gut shot.<BR/><BR/>Not supposed to shoot before dawn or after dusk here in Texas either, not supposed to hunt from vehicles etc. Must have a hunting license to be afield with a firearm during game seasons. These laws are followed to greater or lesser degrees, depending on ranch owners. Seems the only difference between California and Texas is it's legal to hunt over feeders in Texas, although very boring if one were to ask me. Oh, I'd guess Cali probably has magazine restrictions on centerfires too, or is that just your state AWB? You didn't offend me.<BR/><BR/>I still think farming animals is farming animals and one shouldn't pretend otherwise and if an animal is being farmed, then the state shouldn't have anything to do with what the owner allows or doesn't allow on his property unless it's an endangered species, but even that gets sticky. A while back here in Texas the state got involved in harassing people for developing land around Austin that had some sort of rare bird, can't remember what breed of non-game bird it was. Solution of property owners that wanted to do what they wanted with their property was to shoot the endangered birds on sight and not tell anybody about it, so as not to subject their land to more government interference. Probably did more harm than good when the state started bugging people about an endangered species on their land for that species.<BR/><BR/>Regards back at you,<BR/>Tomtomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-4851251920322308742009-03-29T17:55:00.000-04:002009-03-29T17:55:00.000-04:00I will try and address a few of the issues here wi...I will try and address a few of the issues here without offending anyone, as it was never my intentions to offend anyone in the first place, just to state the facts.<BR/><BR/>First thing, is that the terrain here in California is entirely different than in Texas.<BR/>1000 acres of mountainous CA. terrain is about equal to 6,000 to 8,000 acres of TX. flatland.<BR/>Lots of deep canyons and heavy 8' to 10' high brush in CA. for those animals to hide in.<BR/><BR/>We are restricted by law on methods of take and hours of hunting, even in a high fence location.<BR/>For instance, we cannot hunt over a baited area, and we must be at least 350 yards away from a food source area to take a Deer, and 500 yards away from an obvious food source to take a Bear.<BR/><BR/>When the sun goes down the hunting must stop!<BR/><BR/>The only exceptions to this rule are Varmint Hunting, and you must be in possession of a rim-fire rifle or Archery Tackle "only" when hunting at night for these varmints.<BR/><BR/>A person whom takes to the field (any field) for the purpose of taking a: Mammal, Bird, Reptile or Amphibian must have in his/her possession a California Hunters Safety Certificate and a current and valid California Hunting License along with, appropriate tags.<BR/><BR/>The "legal" definition of a wild animal (livestock or otherwise) is an animal which has had no human intervention on its behalf for a period of at least 3 <BR/>months.<BR/>The planted grain and mast crops will sustain a herd of approximately 350 animals on 1000 acres, for about 6 months out of the year.<BR/>No human intervention is needed (feeders turned back on) until about August through January. <BR/><BR/>Although, it is correct that the State has no legal authority to impose a "State Tag Use" for animals harvested within a game preserve, some, like ourselves, will sell State tags to the out of state hunters.<BR/>Over half of the proceeds go to the State for distribution amongst the many and varied animal and habitat programs.<BR/>The little which is then left goes to administrative fees thus leaving no profit for the venue. <BR/><BR/>As I have stated before, a High Fence Game Ranch is most certainly "Not" operating and harvesting within "any" public land/animal forum.<BR/><BR/>But, they most certainly pay their fair share of the Money used to keep the Public Land and Animals to sustainable levels, so that each year the public land hunters can take to a clean and well managed field and enjoy a happy wilderness hunting experience.<BR/><BR/>Best to you,<BR/>T. Michael RiddleNativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689689976933684301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-56064907201654178362009-03-29T15:07:00.000-04:002009-03-29T15:07:00.000-04:00Tom you made some good points. I don't want to sou...Tom you made some good points. I don't want to sound like I'm against the idea of raising game animals as livestock for slaughter. In my town an outfit raises bison and elk and they even sell "hunts" for the animals on respectable size properties. They also slaughter some of those animals for sale as commercial game meat. If you go there to harvest an animal you don't need a license and there is no season- because they are livestock and laws regarding livestock apply. I'd have no compunction about culling out a bison (and even paying his price) to put meat in the freezer. Its a heck of a lot better than store beef and treated a lot more humanely. But I wouldn't call it hunting any more than slaughtering a steer and driving it to the processor would be hunting. (Again, just my opinion...)<BR/><BR/>The rancher works very hard to keep indigenous moose and the free ranging bison herd off his land because if one of those gets shot it will be a legal nightmare because state game laws apply.hodgemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632228055641750343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-22990851875410398192009-03-29T12:13:00.000-04:002009-03-29T12:13:00.000-04:00I've got nothing against people having hunting res...I've got nothing against people having hunting reserves and people who enjoy hunting them and never said I did. The issue is the FENCING OF ANIMALS AND CALLING THEM WILDLIFE WHEN THEY ARE LIVESTOCK. If you want to be a "deer farmer" be honest about it and don't kid yourself.<BR/><BR/>The Reserves/Ranches: They're entitled to make a living at it if they don't break state game laws. I have friends that "cowboy" on some of these ranches which are also working livestock ranches and some have exotics too. I'm not naive. Most people who frequent these ranches "hunt over bait" in Texas, timed feeders and the animals know what time the feeder wheels spin every day. It's true, they aren't always there if they smell a human after being shot at a few times that season but usually are easy enough to be found. Hell, I've yet to meet a bow hunter on one of these sorts of properties that stalked one bit. They've all sat in a tree stand 10-25 yards from a feeder. <BR/><BR/>I know many a place where I can drive you up to within 200 yards of deer, whitetail and exotic, sometimes closer than that. Just have your rifle ready and be a fair shot and you have your deer. If you think my friends that work and "guide" on ranches that they know every square foot of because they drive and ride around them every day of the week, fixing fences and filling feeders/water tanks and checking game trails, don't know where the game are, you're a lunatic. Might be the third or fifth spot they look on any given day or it might be the first, but they've got a damn good idea where the animals are.<BR/><BR/>On one of these ranches a "silk shirter" banker's kid whiffed his shot on a nice buck but wounded him. Was eventually found dead a number of days later as he'd not bled much and got pretty damn far away. The "hunter" was notified and what did he ask? It wasn't "Can I have meat that will taste like 2 day old roadkill?" it was "Make sure when you dress him you cape him properly so I can have him mounted for my office. I'll give you a good tip for it." And I'm sure he has a noble hunting story to tell people that come in his office and ask about it.<BR/><BR/>You can call that whatever you want but it ain't hunting. My friends and I call it culling. If I need to go fill my freezer I'll cull a deer. Culling is necessary because most "silk shirts" won't shoot does. They spent their money for a trophy. If I feel like hunting, I hunt, and might not get anything. They aren't the same thing.<BR/><BR/>SECONDLY: If you make me pay for permission from the STATE to hunt what amount to be private owned animals, what in the hell form of capitalism or socialism it that?<BR/><BR/>If they're privately held animals being bred by the ranchers/farmers, treat them as such. If they are game that belong to the people/state, treat them as such. They can't be both. <BR/><BR/><B>If you've got a captive heard of whitetail, why should I pay the state for a license to shoot one and why should you even have to let game wardens on the land and abide by any of the state hunting regulations?</B> Texas not being California, we don't have "firearms and ammo taxes", we just pay sales tax like on any other items you might buy at a store, but you have to have a license from the state even to hunt on exotic ranches.<BR/><BR/><B>Anybody got an answer for that one since this whole argument/thread is basically about what constitutes property rights?</B><BR/><BR/>True story from 20 years ago: Rancher I knew from working on his trucks and I were BSing over a cup of coffee and he told me how a game warden had come around his ranch (multiple thousand acres) and asked him if he or his hands might be taking antelope out of season and beyond limits as to numbers. He told the warden, "If we were, and I'm not saying it's so that any such thing has ever happened like that, as far as I can tell I am the one feeding them not you." Game warden shook his head, mumbled a bit, and left as he realized that for all practical purposes the rancher owned those antelope and the property was only cattle fenced. I didn't have any ethical problems with the concept that he was feeding them and they were his. Hell I doubt he ever bought a hunting license and that doesn't bother me either.<BR/><BR/>But you've got to pick one: Are wild "type" game animals that are owned by property owners any business of the state at all? Most especially if selective breeding and auctioning of animals is involved?tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-47588425823219726392009-03-29T10:14:00.000-04:002009-03-29T10:14:00.000-04:00A couple more things which I would like to add her...A couple more things which I would like to add here Albert if I may.<BR/><BR/>The clients which give patronage to the High Fence places are not all "Silk Shirt Guys".<BR/>As a matter of fact I (and you) have a very good friend of ours who is currently at one right now as we speak.<BR/>Phillip Loughlin of the Hog Blog is hunting at one in Texas and he is just an average joe like all of the rest of us.<BR/>Just happens to be something which he enjoys doing once a year with family and friends.<BR/><BR/>And another way to see it from the perspective of the operators as well as their clients is that:<BR/><BR/>#1 Not all of the clients shoot trophy's in these places and most people actually come for the meat. And more importantly, the camaraderie of good friends, and a relaxed atmosphere of having the whole place to themselves, and not having to endure the hazards of a crowded public land hunting area.<BR/><BR/>#2 All, of the clients fully understand where they are, and that this is simply just another venue where they can enjoy nature and observe animals in a natural setting. <BR/>Animals which are not pressured so much that they turn nocturnal, like most all of the public lands have become.<BR/><BR/>#3 The animals which are taken inside these areas are "not" part of the public land ecosystem and there fore patrons of the High Fence Preserves are not "Taking" from the public land ecosystem although, these very same patrons (and the operation itself) contribute to the "Public Land" ecosystem the same as everyone else does,<BR/>This being through Hunting License's, Ammo Taxes, Fire arms taxes, property taxes,donations etc. etc. etc.<BR/><BR/>#4 These places offer the elderly,handicapped and first time hunters a venue where they can truly enjoy their outdoor passions, without the frustrations of their limitations causing their outing to be painful for them.<BR/><BR/>#5 The animals which are inside these places are way more familiar with the area than any of the humans which work there.<BR/>It is surprisingly amazing how, when the animals feel the need to disappear, even a pack of dogs cannot find them.<BR/><BR/>It really seems to me by way of some of the commentary here, that most people truly do not know anything more about the High Fence Operations, than what they have read or heard from an obviously biased source.<BR/><BR/>Every thing which is done inside of the "Legitimate" places is exactly the same as a public land hunt would be.<BR/><BR/>Lots of scouting for a particular animal including hours of tracking and locating.<BR/>Sitting in a stand or a blind upon an animal watering or feed trail. <BR/>Not over the actual food plot because then those animals will go nocturnal after being shot at, and we here in California can neither hunt over bait nor shoot at night.<BR/><BR/>A non fatal wound also requires sometimes, many hours or even days of tracking to locate that animal for final dispatch.<BR/>(remember what I said about them knowing the land better than us and evading us quite well)<BR/><BR/>The final thing which I would like to say is the fact that the last time I looked at the T.V. we are still a capitalistic society, Obama has not claimed total socialism yet, and every one is entitled to make a living the entrepreneurial way.<BR/>Even the High Fence Hunting Outfits!Nativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07689689976933684301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-17223001165540326272009-03-28T23:29:00.000-04:002009-03-28T23:29:00.000-04:00I agree it is their land they should be abel to do...I agree it is their land they should be abel to do whatever they want to do with it. But I do think that there are some laws that should be put in place about privet hunting preserves. Like they should have the to register all the animals killed by their clients, because there are people when it is hunting season go and kill an animal and register it as a wiled animal they have killed. This is a problem in an area where I hunt for deer in Crivitz Wisconsin,there is a several hundred acer hunting preserve maybe 20 miles away, and people go kill a trophy deer from there managed heard, and they take it it to town and register it as a wiled deer they killed. But than they take the deer and enter them into big buck competitions and win, because the deer heard is in such bad shape you allot of the time have to sit the hole 9 day gun deer season to get a 4 pointer.Caleb Pearcehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331940359174211773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-36861551348015378632009-03-28T22:12:00.000-04:002009-03-28T22:12:00.000-04:00I'm with Hodgeman.When fenced animals are shot for...I'm with Hodgeman.<BR/><BR/>When fenced animals are shot for whatever purpose, I consider it CULLING not HUNTING. Same with helicopters and road hunting.<BR/><BR/>Hunting don't mean getting any more than fishing means catching fish.<BR/><BR/>Go to "exotic meats dot com" and buy dry iced venison and a nice taxidermied buck wall mount off ebay and make up a story to tell people about it.<BR/><BR/>I'll make a caveat here as I remarked on Africa. In Africa there is only their model for hunting and on 100,000 acres when I'm on foot, there's plenty of chances for the animals to get away and they aren't fenced. I've heard a lot more thundering of hooves getting away from me than the crack of my shots over there, so it's kinda in a weird middle area, maybe?<BR/><BR/>In Texas it's illegal to keep indigenous game for profit. People do anyway. So it's both morally wrong and illegal in the case of where I currently reside.<BR/><BR/>Makes me against it.tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-82528466377870790342009-03-28T21:37:00.000-04:002009-03-28T21:37:00.000-04:00Albert, Thanks for starting this wonderful post. T...Albert, Thanks for starting this wonderful post. To add further comment I'll indirectly answer your last question- "The question at hand is whether High Fence operations or game ranches are immoral or unethical. Is it right or wrong to own, operate, or patronize a high fence/game reserve?"<BR/><BR/>In short let me preface this by saying that property rights say you can raise animals (ie. livestock) on your property and those animals can be more or less dispositioned by you in relativly any manner you see fit. If you fence your land and raise elk for slaughter I could care less.<BR/><BR/>Where I find a hiccup is when you provide those animals (which you regard as "property", hence the fee) to others for the purpose of shooting. It may not be illegal, or even immoral- but its not hunting. To me (I can only speak for myself on this matter) the essence of hunting requires that I restrain myself so as to not have undue advantage over the animal. Given our technology and reason we can devise some rather ingenious methods to find and kill game not the least of which is a high fence to ensure the quarry is within huntable distance. An animals first and best method of defense is to not be where you are. Scarcity of game is one of the fundamentals of hunting.<BR/><BR/>So to me the operation and patronage of a high fence operation is first and foremost "not hunting" so the question of its ethics or morality is pretty moot. Calling it hunting is (again speaking only for myself) immoral because it is fundametally in my opinion- a lie.<BR/><BR/>Hoping to not light another fuse....hodgemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632228055641750343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-14055097975116591892009-03-28T20:58:00.000-04:002009-03-28T20:58:00.000-04:00Tom,Conundrum: But if the game happens to be insid...Tom,<BR/><BR/>Conundrum: But if the game happens to be inside the confines of my fence, and I don't shoot them illegally, what exactly am I doing wrong? If I spend my money feeding them, where is the harm? If I make my money charging you a fee for trespassing on my property, albeit with the intention of taking buck "a," what is the problem?<BR/><BR/>I see the issue, I just don't see any, and I mean any, way out of the conundrum, short of the state buying up the land and making it public. Legislating access would only destroy the resource. I'm old enough to remember the Kaibab Range debacle, and the time when Texas deer were smaller than Florida deer.<BR/><BR/>If we take exotics/ non-natives off the table, we start to get deeper into the emotional heart of the matter.<BR/><BR/>AlbertAlbert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-38970242668841886712009-03-28T20:51:00.000-04:002009-03-28T20:51:00.000-04:00One final thing related to "asphalt meets hunters"...One final thing related to "asphalt meets hunters":<BR/><BR/>A lady friend of mine lives about an hour to the east in Austin, Texas and she gets some tremendous well fed whitetail, and they are many in number, terrorizing her gardening. Not even allowed to bowhunt them. She asked me to look into it and I got a big fat NO from all authorities.<BR/><BR/>Google "Murchison Middle School Austin" as that's her area. Bigger deer, on average, than you can find on a 6k a year lease but not huntable. <BR/><BR/>It's an odd world.<BR/><BR/>I guess cities are "High Fenced Areas" too?tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-83385838002951009112009-03-28T20:35:00.000-04:002009-03-28T20:35:00.000-04:00I'd like to add:I have friends that work on some o...I'd like to add:<BR/><BR/>I have friends that work on some of these ranches from Junction to Alpine to Del Rio. I've seen it from the inside. If the "richie rich" can't shoot, the guy who drove him up to where he can shoot his deer out of the truck window by a feeder will shoot the deer for him for a minor "tip".<BR/><BR/>I once was offered a shot at a buck in an acre "corral".<BR/><BR/>That isn't hunting.tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-31380028047573199912009-03-28T20:25:00.000-04:002009-03-28T20:25:00.000-04:00If the state claims ownership of the game and you ...If the state claims ownership of the game and you have to buy a STATE license to hunt the indigenous game, it's not correct to High Fence to keep indigenous game on your property.<BR/><BR/>Most Texas exotic ranches that High Fence also have whitetail and other indigenous species on the property and close their exotic concession during whitetail seasons except to whitetail lease holders, etc. During the time they close the exotic hunting off to anybody but members of the lease, they do not open up the fences so in my personal opinion, they are claiming ownership of indigenous species owned by the State of Texas.<BR/><BR/>If it was African/European game rules and all game belongs to the property holder, I wouldn't have a legal issue with it. <BR/><BR/>As it is, they are fencing in game and intentionally breeding trophy specimens with their requirements as to what you can and can't shoot and their feeding when the management of those species of wildlife is under the ownership of the STATE and the PEOPLE. They have no legal right to do so. Of course, a large number of their "silk shirted clients" are prominent businessmen and politicians/lobbyists, so nobody ever calls them on it. It's still illegal. If I started "farming" huntable whitetail for rich hunters on my middle class smaller plot of Texas the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife would be all over me and threatening to asset forfeiture my little ranch and take my pickup truck. If the Y.O. Ranch does it, it's business as usual.tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14230665595988628546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1999508328036467805.post-58733780433791554142009-03-28T20:01:00.000-04:002009-03-28T20:01:00.000-04:00Folks,Just to get us moving in the same direction ...Folks,<BR/><BR/>Just to get us moving in the same direction again.<BR/><BR/>The question at hand is whether High Fence operations or game ranches are immoral or unethical. Is it right or wrong to own, operate, or patronize a high fence/game reserve?<BR/><BR/>If it is, I want to know why. If it isn't wrong, why is there such an antipathy to it, or is it just hearsay?<BR/><BR/>By the way this is awesome! Thank you Deer Passion for great insight and Mike for his inside perspective. And thank you to everyone for adding to the understanding!<BR/><BR/>And let's all thank Rick for lighting the match!!!<BR/><BR/>Y'alls friend!<BR/>AlbertAlbert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.com